Curse

Qaletaqa Hania · Jan 20, 2010, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

You're ignorant, I'm sorry, but you are...

Worst thing is, you're one of those ignorant people, who don't even want to be thaught. I'm willing to PROOVE to you you're not better than a bot, nor is anyone, but then you're crawling back into your cave under the excuse of "Anet will ban me if I team up with you".

Go play some more guild wars from you batcave, sir. Im tired of arguing with "dumb" people.

So i'm dumb and ignorant for not willing to test it because I don't wanna take the "small" risk that my account might get banned?

I guess reading the UA and actually following it is dumb and ignorant. Right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Except you originally quoted your 'variables' in reply to Borat stating that running a bot is faster than not running one for menial activities like picking presents up. No one else's location or ping has any relevance to you running a bot or not. Given the context that you originally quoted, those factors were constant, you can't just invent a new situation now.

I was replying to the "Server Client packet transfer for dummies" where he said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

-Bot instantly, replies -Within milliseconds *Depends how fast your PC can process it*

Wich is a variable, so I responded with giving him more variables. So I did not "invent" that new situation you mention, he did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Just throwing around some really basic numbers here, but how fast do you think you can react to seeing a present on the ground? 250ms is a pretty average human reaction time. Factor in the delay in actually pressing the buttons and you're looking at a good 300ms or so from the time the present drops until you pick it up. Bots don't have reflexes buddy. I could create some basic pseudocode for a simple pickup bot, and I would imagine that on most modern PCs you're looking at perhaps 5ms processing time, perhaps as much as 10ms if you really wanted to be pedantic. Draw your own conclusion.

I think the average human response time is a little faster, somewhere around 150-200. And yeah the response time for a PC might be faster but you would also have to take into account the sending and recieving of packets to and from the server, and that might make a huge difference depending on where you, your opponent and the server is located.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

How many times do you think you can mash a button or two in one second? Without rebinding a bunch of keys to target nearest item and execute action, you're looking at probably 8 hits per second, and that's if you're a pretty twitchy RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO. So even if you are mashing on those buttons, on average you're hitting them once every 125ms. The likelihood of one of those keypresses landing within that 5-10ms window (at most) that a bot requires to operate is slim at best.

You may be fast, but don't make the mistake of thinking you're faster than a bot.

A year ago I had an average of 14 hits per second with 2 fingers using 4 buttons. I actually calculated that after playing stepmania once based on the lenght of a song and the amount of steps in that song that I completed without missing a step.
My average might be higher when I would remove all the "pauses" in the song. Some parts of the song doesn't have steps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Your argument is that some humans are faster than bots. You only want one independent variable for this purpose - namely whether a given person is running a bot, or they are not. For this purpose you simply assume that your own ping differs not, whether you are running a bot or you aren't. Comparing two different people's connections was a sidetrack from that, in an attempt to point out that one persons ping advantage may be enough to beat another person's bot. It is a deciding factor - just in a more advanced and completely different situation. Nice try though.

You actually made the assumption that I didn't had the variables in mind when writing my first post in this thread. Yes I may not have been specific in which kinda setting but to me it's common sense to use it in the setting where the bot is currently beeing used, wich is a world-wide MMORPG or CORPG accessed from different countries wich obviously has all those variables I mentioned and more... so I didn't change the situation.

We both had a different situation in mind. Alltho I still think there are people that are faster then bots when using your setting (with no variables), that is my personal oppinion.

If there currently are no people that are faster then a bot on this planet then it won't take long before there are people that will be faster. People are competitive by nature and they adapt fast, very fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

The final paragraph of my initial post was not aimed at you directly, it was aimed at (quite obviously) the people who were disputing the existence of such bots.

Sry about that, I thought it was because the rest of the post was aimed at me.

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

For some reason, you keep going on about: "Bots can't do strategy", and this and that. I agree. A bot does not reason, it's AI. But it doesn't need.

It would need to be able to think, unless you are going to supply that. Snowball Arena isn't a simple optimization function where if you execute a certain sequence of actions under fixed circumstances, you win. Neither is RBR, surprisingly enough. The other five players make things a bit more complicated. In both cases, there would have to be a human present to make the decisions that a bot could not.

I keep going on about this because you repeatedly miss the point. Strategy > pickup bot. We beat teams that macro. We don't macro or bot. That tends to confirm the theory.

Now, you repeatedly dispute this because you believe we bot. Not going to lie: it would be nice to have the sort of ninja pickup abiltiies a bot would provide. But I like my account too much to put it at risk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Botting ALLOWS you to EMPLOY BETTER TACTICS, because you don't have to camp the runner waiting for a pick-up anymore. The same reason cookie cutter builds in HA or GvG allow for better strategy. This is one of the main reason sinsplit was so effective. The gameplay itself gets reduced to nothing, so U can focus your brainpower on strategy.

Yes, I agree that anything that lets you focus on playing the match rather than playing your bar (and the opponent's bar) will improve overall outcomes. I've never disputed that. What's under dispute is the magnitude of the impact. You continue to believe that pickups are everything. You are in good company; as noted, I've had the positioning vs. pickups argument at least half a dozen times with other guild members.

But it just isn't true. Obs doesn't lie. Tactics fails lead to bad things that obtain 30 seconds to a minute later. This is easy to miss in a match, but hard to miss if you religiously use Obs and compare wins to losses. If you hadn't failed on tactics, pickups never would have been an issue. The matches always boil down to, "If So-and-So had done X instead of Y there, that guy never would have been at location Z later to scoop, and we'd have capped the gift that beat us". It's people running past obvious threats rather than dealing with them that kills you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

That experiment you're talking about is something I DID do, I just didn't cam it because I was on a shitty pc (7-15 FPS, go!). Anyways, I did it exactly like you said: I hidden rock up out of range, XXXX DnD'd it. I went out of range but DIDN'T Hidden rock, and he ignored the snowball. I did this about 5-6 times. (So of each hidden rock, and regular) Each time, the KD'ing snowball gets dodged, the non-KD'ing doesn't.

I'd buy it if you showed me the video. Without it, it's your word against his and the simplest explanation is that he doesn't cheat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

YES, I admit, this, and also the fact he DnD's when surrounded by 6 enemy's (So when it would be really dumb to DnD) COULD be all concidence.

I've commented on this before. It's not dumb. It's smart. Daze sucks. If you get Dazed by a Hidden Rock in a mob, you can expect Snow Down The Shirt to follow. Once that happens, forget about getting that gift back yourself.

If you avoid the Daze, you can still use your Rock even if someone uses Snow Down the Shirt on you. Cooldowns rock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

If I say Bspam is overpowered, and say that every top guild is getting destroyed by xxx PvE guild, than I have "proof", as in the reality supports my theory.

You're just prejudiced. Your argument boils down to: a bunch of semi-retired top 100 and old-school R9 players can't possibly be good enough at the game to beat current top 100 players. That just isn't so. You're playing against people that have played Gamer events like you play HA. We've played more matches, we understand the strategy better, and we know tricks you don't.

sixacsix · Jan 20, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania

I think the average human response time is a little faster, somewhere around 150-200. And yeah the response time for a PC might be faster but you would also have to take into account the sending and recieving of packets to and from the server, and that might make a huge difference depending on where you, your opponent and the server is located.

Wich can make a huge difference.

Hey, there's just one issue.. you see.. when you manually pick up the present, you have to send the packet to the server as well, and even more! Guild Wars also has to process your input before deciding to send the packet to the server.

This bot hooks the packet receive function and within nanoseconds of the packet being received it already kicks off the send packet function inside Guild Wars.
It is materially impossible to be faster than that unless you have negative reflex time.

I don't mean to say your reasoning is dumb but in this case it kinda is.

Edit: Thinking about it, even if you had negative reflex time it would be impossible to be faster than the bot, because at the time you would press the key, the present wouldn't be on your client yet, hence the client wouldn't even send a pickup packet.

Junato · Jan 20, 2010, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man
That experiment you're talking about is something I DID do, I just didn't cam it because I was on a shitty pc (7-15 FPS, go!). Anyways, I did it exactly like you said: I hidden rock up out of range, XXXX DnD'd it. I went out of range but DIDN'T Hidden rock, and he ignored the snowball. I did this about 5-6 times. (So of each hidden rock, and regular) Each time, the KD'ing snowball gets dodged, the non-KD'ing doesn't.

This could also mean that the player is specifically trying to conserve what he has by only interrupting the KD's

I agree with Martin the bigger picture no matter the argument is certain things will prevail like my poker analogy in before. I now realize if the bot has the best set there are other ways to end the game which boil down to tactics.

I can see how personalities in this thread can really be head-on.

Div · Jan 20, 2010, 10:20 PM // 22:20

The problem is that all they really care about is GW2, while completely ignoring the 0.1% of serious PvP competitors that actually get affected by this type of botting you're describing. After all, from a business perspective, why should they bother? They rather make the majority happy and have good sales on GW2. Sure, you can say that pissing off the current 0.1% will make them be less likely to buy GW2, or discourage others from buying it, but to be honest, those people they're pissing off will buy/not buy GW2 regardless of their current actions.

Even in this thread, you can see there are people oblivious to bots, there are people who defend bots, and there are people who are clueless to how big of an advantage bots can give. So why should Anet deal with it?

tl;dr version: people that they've pissing off by not dealing with PvP botters don't matter in their business model.

rokoisbeast · Jan 20, 2010, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Div

The problem is that all they really care about is GW2, while completely ignoring the 0.1% of serious PvP competitors that actually get affected by this type of botting you're describing. After all, from a business perspective, why should they bother? They rather make the majority happy and have good sales on GW2. Sure, you can say that pissing off the current 0.1% will make them be less likely to buy GW2, or discourage others from buying it, but to be honest, those people they're pissing off will buy/not buy GW2 regardless of their current actions.

Even in this thread, you can see there are people oblivious to bots, there are people who defend bots, and there are people who are clueless to how big of an advantage bots can give. So why should Anet deal with it?

tl;dr version: people that they're pissing off by not dealing with PvP botters don't matter in their business model.

So why should anet deal with Botting?

Example:GvG MAT
Top guild uses a bot and wins gold
Do u not see any thing wrong with that?

Greedy Gus · Jan 20, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Div

Even in this thread, you can see there are people oblivious to bots, there are people who defend bots, and there are people who are clueless to how big of an advantage bots can give. So why should Anet deal with it?

Which is why those people are the most culpable for the problem: they're getting in the way of the botting issue being taken seriously. Chomsky would be ashamed of the way martin is using his intellect & position here.

So even if martin here admits that bots & scripts & add-ons exist and the game would be far better off without them in one small paragraph, he also spammed a novel's worth of theorycraft arguments on the pitfalls of bots and wants to discuss elite snowball & RBR strategies, until everyone stops reading his posts and assumes that there are 2 sides to an actual debate because people are having quotewars for 5 pages.

Then a fril comes in, and opens his first post by saying he has no idea what he's talking about but he chooses to side with martin, and then goes to bat with his 'team' for the next 4 pages.

And then either an overzealous or conflict-averse guru mod swoops in to lock the thread after one side spammed it enough to troll the people with a valid complaint into random rantings or repeating what was already said on page 1, or lock it based on some weak precedent because some other mod chose to close the last thread(s) about botting, or gives some excuse that because anet must already know about it, and they haven't done anything, then this is surely fruitless.

And we all lose because it lets anet ignore an actual problem.

Tearz1993 · Jan 21, 2010, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

And we all lose because it lets anet ignore an actual problem.

quoted for emphasis. Martin, nobody (who matters) is saying that you're wrong about being able to deal with bots. the issue is you can't just dismiss the issue by saying "well nothing will be fixed anyways, so stop complaining about it."

Div · Jan 21, 2010, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by rokoisbeast

So why should anet deal with Botting?

Example:GvG MAT
Top guild uses a bot and wins gold
Do u not see any thing wrong with that?

At this point in the game and considering their business model, no, I don't see anything wrong with their response.

From a gamer and ethics perspective, yes, of course there's something wrong.

Martin Alvito · Jan 21, 2010, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

quoted for emphasis. Martin, nobody (who matters) is saying that you're wrong about being able to deal with bots. the issue is you can't just dismiss the issue by saying "well nothing will be fixed anyways, so stop complaining about it."

I think you're still misunderstanding my position.

- Bots are a problem
- They aren't going anywhere in the near future
- They can be beaten by good play that understands their capabilities and limitations
- Because they can be beaten by good play, they aren't the top priority issue in the game right now (getting the skills right takes precedence atm, IMO)

My charge is that many of you aren't being realistic about the problem. You're overreacting, and you aren't asking the question that you should be asking: what can I do about the problem independent of ANet's actions?

Do the bots make the game worse? Absolutely. Is the sky falling? No.

Karate Jesus · Jan 21, 2010, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

- They can be beaten by good play that understands their capabilities and limitations
- Because they can be beaten by good play, they aren't the top priority issue in the game right now (getting the skills right takes precedence atm, IMO)

Tbh, both of those points depend on who's bot you're fighting. If you're fighting a top 100 bot (hopefully pre-mAT), then you can rest assured that it will hand your ass to you.

Well programmed bots are by far more proficient than players (even good ones). And, as others have mentioned, some players are using bots to help aid them as they play (by identifying the other teams skills, keeping track of their weapon sets, auto-calling, etc.).

So...these bots can't be disregarded so easily. Some of them are amazing, and I'd rather not see a day when the top 100 players in GW are bots.

Tramp · Jan 21, 2010, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

So...these bots can't be disregarded so easily. Some of them are amazing, and I'd rather not see a day when the top 100 players in GW are bots.

Exactly. Martin is dreaming if he thinks good play is going to beat out a bot. The bot takes the optimal route and all the bot operator has to do is hope for the lucky box combo. Rinse and repeat a whole bunch of times until the lucky combo comes up. There is little wear and tear on the botter unlike the frazzled nerves and reflexes that a clean player will inevitably face after hours of play. IMO, bots are going to be a big part of the rollerbeetle tourney this year, because now the general player based has finally been informed about what is out there with these new bots. If some gold selling farming operations decide that a 500e mini is some quick money, they can easily stick a bot on 20, 50, 100 accounts. How many people out there have 10+ accounts? I would guess the number is in the thousands. It will not take many of them to take up the top 100 slots and players without bots are going to be competing for how many non-bot postions? 75? 50? 10? 5? none? Hell, last year I bought a beetle from a guy who won 6 or 7 of them. Some were his own accounts, some were guildies accounts that he logged into and did splitz with when he won. This year it is going to be worse because these bots are much better than ever before. Good luck if you dont run a bot, is all I can say, cuz I think you are hosed. I have exactly 134 gamer title points, and I do not plan on hitting 135.

Revelations · Jan 21, 2010, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Which is why those people are the most culpable for the problem: they're getting in the way of the botting issue being taken seriously. Chomsky would be ashamed of the way martin is using his intellect & position here.

So even if martin here admits that bots & scripts & add-ons exist and the game would be far better off without them in one small paragraph, he also spammed a novel's worth of theorycraft arguments on the pitfalls of bots and wants to discuss elite snowball & RBR strategies, until everyone stops reading his posts and assumes that there are 2 sides to an actual debate because people are having quotewars for 5 pages.

Then a fril comes in, and opens his first post by saying he has no idea what he's talking about but he chooses to side with martin, and then goes to bat with his 'team' for the next 4 pages.

And then either an overzealous or conflict-averse guru mod swoops in to lock the thread after one side spammed it enough to troll the people with a valid complaint into random rantings or repeating what was already said on page 1, or lock it based on some weak precedent because some other mod chose to close the last thread(s) about botting, or gives some excuse that because anet must already know about it, and they haven't done anything, then this is surely fruitless.

And we all lose because it lets anet ignore an actual problem.

Have my babies.

@Qaletaqa, I'm no longer going to argue my point. You choose to ignore some pretty compelling evidence presented against you, so there is obviously no way you're going to change your view. Either you're an idiot, a troll, or a botter, but Ima go with the first.

deluxe · Jan 21, 2010, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Since anet doesnt ban for botting, "you might aswell use it" is what the people think.
And they're right! I would probably bot the RBR if I had one, why not? What are you risking? Exactly!
I'ts not like I (or Anet) give a damn about RBR. Actual PvP is a different story, have a bit too much honor for that :P
There RA bot's i've seen go from G0 to G6, maybe they got banned eventually since I dont see them lately.

Killed u man · Jan 21, 2010, 02:12 PM // 14:12

^

Which is the point I made last time. I hidden rocked up out of range of the radar, and sometimes I didn't, but ONLY the KD'ing snowball would get KD'd.

When an spell is getting cast on you, 2 things happen, 1 of which you can see, the other one you can't:

The visual part is the actual animation, or in this case the snowball flying towards you.

The "coded" part is the notification to the client, that a spell has been cast, aswell as all the proporties of said spell.

Through code, you can exactly tell wether or not a projectile: A) Is going to hit you, and B) Is going to KD you.

If the latter is true, all you have to do, just like the pick-up bot, is reply that package with another anyone saying: "Drop Bundle, Strafe left, Strafe Right, Pick Up Bundle".

I've seen certain botters strafe snowballs (On a regular occasion) from within nearby range, only because they can drop, strafe and pick up so fast.
But as I said, whoever coded the Drop N Dodge bot forgot to write a few lines of code to make sure it DOESN'T drop when surrounded by enemies.

And this is how I could tell the difference between human players and non human players. ONLY KD'ing snowballs with get DnD'd, but they ALWAYS would, regardless of situation of position of enemy team.
I've even seen some people who I assume are botting DnD within adjecent range of their avatar. (Instead of just capping it)

@Martin:

I gues we're done arguing then. You keep defending your flawed statement that a "player can beat a bot in PvP" when the intire point of the bot was TO BE BETTER. For someone who has NO top GvG experience, as of recent, or who'se guild is of no importance to PvP whatsoever, you "assume" way too many things.

For example your "build wars" arguements against the interrupt bot. But tell me, how does one build wars against interrupts? Run Mo/Me with Mantra of Conc/Resolve? (Lol) Mo/D with Pious concentration, not only having to spend an extra 5 energy per spell, but also rendering themselves useless against spikes. (No defence)

Or the thing that makes me even laugh more is the "faking". To all the inexperienced GvG'ers out there: Faking against a bot is NOT an option, for the obvious reason that: 1) the bot runs a bar of interrupts. You can fake as much as you want, you still won't get a spell off.
2) The bot usually has Pdrain/Leech and 5 energy interrupts. So for every 5 energy YOU waste, the bots waste 5 energy aswell, but he gains +-40 energy every 30 seconds on top of his 4 pips.
3) A Monk simply can't afford to fake every spell. If you do, watch how fast you collapse against even low pressure builds. (2 warriors and 6 defensive casters)

Some bots can NOT be beaten through casual play. Others can, but require top notch play. Interrupt bots and Snowball bots belong to the first category, the RBR bot belong to the second.

glountz · Jan 21, 2010, 02:43 PM // 14:43

[/DISCLAIMERON]: I HEREBY ADMIT TO HAVE TESTED ELABORATED AND VERY NICE BOTS. YES, I DID CHEAT. [/DISCLAIMEROFF]

Another nice thing about rupt-based elaborated bots, is that common defense against rupts just don't work. If you try to lure a spell-based rupts (those mesmer ones that can only rupt spells n' shouts) by casting say a signet, the bot will cast the right skill able to rupt it and don't waste a spell-based rupt. Faking, an also common way to force interrupt wasting, also don't work at all, because the bot just cast rupt when it has something to rupt, while a human would lured by the casting animation and rupt even when it has stopped.
I mean that, contrarily to Martin's assomptions, a lot of human and skill based defense against those kind of bots just fail badly.

Well, anyway, the first bot that was extremely potent was introduced by A-Net itself in HA, it was Olias the Necro and his companions N/Rt.
It has only gotten worst since, that is why I just don't play anymore that rotten game.

As a side note: No, I won't buy GW2. A-Nets bad moves and uncareness on GW1 just have taken me definitively away.
LOTRO, while grind-based, has a so nice community that I think I clearly found my place there, until Starcraft II and Diablo III get out.

Shayne Hawke · Jan 21, 2010, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

Offscreen and Outside of the bubble?

If there's any doubt about who has a rock or not, you dodge (at least) the first one they toss, or put up a fort if you feel too insecure.

Killed u man · Jan 21, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Well obviously, you won't be able to "google" these bots, let alone find an open forum allowing you to download it.
It wouldn't be called underground communities if you could google yourself straight to them, would it?

Izzy's balance forums still exist, if I'm not mistaken, yet try and google it, or even view it's pages (it's locked for visitors). Exactly, you can't...
And more often than not, those sites aren't even in English. (German seems to be the most common language) ITS ALWAYS ZE GERMANS.

Also, 8 more days till Snowball, the clock is ticking, Anet...

Tullzinski · Jan 21, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Well obviously, you won't be able to "google" these bots, let alone find an open forum allowing you to download it.
It wouldn't be called underground communities if you could google yourself straight to them, would it?

Izzy's balance forums still exist, if I'm not mistaken, yet try and google it, or even view it's pages (it's locked for visitors). Exactly, you can't...
And more often than not, those sites aren't even in English. (German seems to be the most common language) ITS ALWAYS ZE GERMANS.

Also, 8 more days till Snowball, the clock is ticking, Anet...

Since it is on google code it is open to anyone at this point. Since my previous post was just removed concerning I said no and how I found it, I will ask again how to go about listing the information here.

Locating it as I did is proof positive that this exists and is a problem! In my mind the rest of this discussion is mute. This bot exists and needs to be removed as soon as possible!!!!

gone · Jan 21, 2010, 04:14 PM // 16:14

someone already posted snips of the code. lulz.